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Beyoncé's three-act project was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 19 March 2024 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Beyoncé. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
Look at Lady Gaga's lead page for instance, the lead call her as “influential figure”, or Shakira with “Queen of Latin” title with no source at all. Do you have a problem with that?
why are you so bothered and always vandalizing this page with unreasonable reasons?? Everything written on this page is accompanied by a credible source Newpicarchive (talk) 20:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"... she has transformed the sound of popular music with her vocal ability, live performances and artistic innovations." This article is a muster of peacocks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.134.6.233 (talk) 20:27, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Beyoncé has certainly become the female artist with the most RIAA-certified titles. However, Billboard incorrectly reported that she had 103 titles certified by the RIAA. According to the RIAA's official data, Beyoncé actually has 92 titles certified at a minimum of Gold. This discrepancy likely originated from a post by her record label, Columbia TheWikiholic (talk) 15:37, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As good as Beyoncé is, the lead should be changed to sound less glowing and more in line with other contemporary figures. Taylor Swift’s lead is ideal for a benchmark 51.9.221.65 (talk) 14:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I toned down the lead sentence to be less puffy and more objective: she is an influential cultural figure who's influenced pop music through her work, etc.
What is exactly the source for Cowboy Carter being an epic? As I understand it, pretty much all of her albums post-2013 have been conceptual music with overarching narratives. For example, Lemonade was a concept album with all tracks connecting together. The specific usage of the word "epic" is confusing to me as that can describe many of her old albums..
We really need to WP:STICKTOSOURCE - if several reliable sources describe her as "one of the most", it is not our jobs as editors to erase that.
Many publications describe Cowboy Carter as an epic, specifically because of its Americana and Western aspects. See here: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9]
Also: the change to "influenced" is too repetitive with "influential", and why was the information that makes the "all 8 studio albums debuting at #1" point notable (that she is the only female artist to do so) erased? Bgkc4444 (talk) 12:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So? all of other singers who have gotten much more praise than Beyonce don't have these over-hyping lead sentences. Lead should stick to hardcore facts NOT REGARDED BY SOME WELL-KNOWN MAGAZINES. You turned this page into a Beyonce fanpage instead of Wikipedia 171.237.208.170 (talk) 11:15, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This in particular: "she has transformed the sound of popular music with her vocal ability, live performances and artistic innovations" seems like a bit much. I'm sure there's a better way to convey a similar sentiment without being over the top; even using "influenced" is better regardless of repetition. Breaktheicees (talk) 05:42, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I invite you to check WP:OCON, which says that "you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on whether similar content exists on another page". But still, your claim is evidently false:
"Regarded as one of the most influential hip-hop artists of his generation, and one of the greatest rappers of all time" Kendrick Lamar
"He is credited with popularizing hip-hop in Middle America and is regarded as one of the greatest rappers of all time" Eminem
"Regarded as the "Queen of Rap" and one of the most influential rappers of all time, she is credited as a driving force in the mainstream resurgence of female rap" Nicki Minaj
"One of the most prominent figures in hip-hop" Kanye West
"he is regarded as one of history's greatest musicians" Prince (musician)
"he is regarded as one of the most significant cultural figures of the 20th century" Elvis Presley
"he is regarded as one of the most significant cultural figures of the 20th century" Michael Jackson
"Dubbed the "Prince of Pop", Billboard honored him as the best performing solo act on Pop Airplay and one of the greatest pop stars of the 21st century" Justin Timberlake
"One of the most acclaimed and influential musicians of the 20th century, he is credited as a pioneer and influence by musicians across a range of genres" Stevie Wonder
"Acclaimed by critics and musicians, particularly for his work during the 1970s, his music and showmanship have had a significant, lasting impact on the music industry" Elton John
Ultimately, we really need to stick to source (again, please read up on WP:STICKTOSOURCE), and the continuous removal of content despite its encyclopedic material and the use of many reliable sources, seemingly because of all the "other singers" who have received "much more praise than Beyonce", is not appropriate. Bgkc4444 (talk) 09:25, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Are there multiple sources out there that say Beyonce "has influenced (or transformed) popular music with her vocal ability, live performances and artistic innovations" whatever that is supposed to mean? ~~ Jessintime (talk) 15:43, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, but editors' false claim that Beyoncé's article is overly filled with unacceptable phrasing summarising her positive perception, in a way that is so extreme and has never been seen on a musician's Wikipedia article before, is very clearly not true, and in fact there even seems to be a precedent of summarising artist's positive perceptions. Bgkc4444 (talk) 09:12, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Changed the lead sentences of Eminem, Nicki Minaj, Kendrick Lamar, Prince. And still reality is that pages above couldn’t come close to Beyonce page in terms of exaggeration.
Interesting that you edit those other artists' articles to try improve them (only when prompted by me) but continually make blanket removals of material from this article without any talk page discussion. From those other articles it seems like your issue is in-text attribution, so why don't we just say "Regarded as one of the most influential figures in music history by numerous publications including Rolling Stone and the Associated Press,[1]"? Bgkc4444 (talk) 10:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is much more useful to give specific facts and statistics, like those in the last paragraph in the lede, than to say “her work is ranked by Rolling Stone as among the greatest of all time,” which is nonspecific and doesn’t help the reader better understand who Beyoncé is and what she’s done (which is what encyclopedia articles are for), other than telling us a publication called Rolling Stone thinks highly of her. There is also a limit to what can be said in Wikivoice, and phrases like “her artistic innovations and pioneering releases” are not within those bounds because they are promotional rather than descriptive. Lastly, sourcebombing the lede with dozens of sources to justify promotional language is not necessary because the lede is supposed to summarize the article body and ideally have no sources since everything will be expanded upon in the article. Thank you for reading and contributing. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 21:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for contributing to the discussion - please stop repeating your known-to-be controversial edits to this article when this is your first contribution here. Certainly the fact that Beyoncé's work across all media are widely acclaimed by publications is notable information. You had an issue with that, so this was changed to explicitly state one source to be more specific, and now you're saying that we shouldn't include that at all, because you don't think "a publication called Rolling Stone" is notable enough. That doesn't make sense. It's almost like certain editors don't want Beyoncé to be accurately described because it somehow detracts from the "other musician/band articles" who they perceive to be "equally or more" deserving of positive-sounding material[10] To the rest of your points, if you disagree with the tone/referencing, why not just try reach consensus or edit the text yourself, instead of repeatedly making blanket removals of text? Bgkc4444 (talk) 22:30, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. I agree that Rolling Stone is a notable publication, but disagree that saying Rolling Stone ranks Beyoncé’s work highly in many rankings on its website belongs in the lead paragraph of the article. It does not help explain who Beyoncé is or what she has done, and if you want to emphasize how acclaimed she is, the concrete awards and statistics in the final paragraph of the lead are a much more descriptive way to do that.
The point that other musician articles don’t have similar language was not my justification for removal in that instance, it was just the context (“there’s a reason these other articles don’t include this type of language”) for my justification.
Lastly, I would edit the text instead of removing if I felt that the substance was helpful to convey but just needed rewording. In the cases being discussed, I did not feel that the substance being conveyed belonged in the lead at all, hence my removal. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 00:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
So why not just move it to the bottom paragraph then? I mean many artists who have "ranked highly on Rolling Stone's website" mention that in the lead, from Joni Mitchell to Kanye West and Talking Heads to Radiohead. And its certainly a piece of information that explains Beyoncé's specific notability that many of her works across media featured on these lists.
Clearly those other articles do include similar language. The lead should explain why Beyoncé is notable. The "other musician/band articles" who you may perceive to be "equally or more" deserving of positive-sounding material do explain in the lead paragraph why they are a significant artist and their impact on music. Why do you refuse to allow that to be done here like with this blanket removal? If it's a wording issue, improve the wording. And if you want to help improve the article more broadly, let's try develop a consensus-led paragraph. Bgkc4444 (talk) 09:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point, though the difference in the lead sections for Joni Mitchell and Kanye West is they mention specific accolades from Rolling Stone, which is different from the less informative “Rolling Stone has ranked her work as among the greatest of all time” and refbombing it with a dozen Rolling Stone lists. I would agree that we can include any specific accolades from Rolling Stone that are more important than ones currently mentioned in the final paragraph and replace those, if there is a specific one that better conveys her influence than the ones currently listed there. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 10:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As a caveat, I’d also note that I think the leads/articles for many popular Western pop musicians are similarly flawed as reading like fan-written attempts to promote the subject rather than encyclopedic descriptions of them. A better quality example than the ones raised here is the article for Taylor Swift. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 11:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think the current opening paragraph of the lede is too stark.
Referring to various other artists e.g. Britney Spears, Eminem, Nick Minaj, Radiohead etc etc. they all have very puffery language but their impact on the music industry has been clearly defined in their ledes e.g.(Britney " she is credited with influencing the revival of teen pop; Minaj " is credited as a driving force in the mainstream resurgence of female rap" etc etc). So if we are to mention Beyonce's influence in her lede, perhaps we need to be more specific of what that impact is.. One of her main areas of impact is the surprise/visual albums. As a loose suggestion, something like this?
Beyoncé Giselle Knowles-Carter (/biˈɒnseɪ/ bee-ON-say), born on September 4, 1981, is an American singer, songwriter, and businesswoman. Regarded as one of the most influential figures in music history, she is known for her vocal ability, dynamic performances, and cultural impact. She is credited with popularizing the surprise album release and redefining the modern visual album. Billboard ranked her the greatest pop star of the 21st Century.
I disagree. What you describe as “stark” is exactly how encyclopedia articles are supposed to read. See Taylor Swift, which is a featured article and therefore a more useful example for comparison. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 12:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Koppite1 that the opening paragraph is too stark and does not accurately indicate to a reader the subject's notability and importance. Thank you for your suggestion for an alternative paragraph. I've reworked the "legacy" section of the article to make it more accurate, concise and comprehensive, and will have a think about how the lead can reflect this topic better.
Bzweebl - Sure, Swift's article is featured, but so is Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, R.E.M., The Beatles, Bob Dylan, David Bowie, Sex Pistols and Big Star, all of which explain explicitly why the subject is notable and important in the opening paragraph, with focus on their cultural impact (even with more "puffery" than was in this article). There is a very clear precedent here. Also the latter of the list (shock, horror!) quotes Rolling Stone AND mentions their works' placement on Rolling Stone lists in its opening paragraph. Also this is beyond the scope of this discussion, but Swift's purported "artistic reinventions, and cultural impact" and status as "the subject of widespread media coverage" is surely not the best way of summarising her particular notability and importance to readers.
Regarding the inclusion of Rolling Stone lists, are you saying it is preferable to list out each of those lists in the lead? I think that becomes too wordy and we should keep it concise. Bgkc4444 (talk) 13:56, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Koppite1: Surprise albums and visual albums are mentioned explicitly later in the lead, so maybe can say something higher-level in the opening paragraph, ensuring that the main topics in the "Legacy" section are covered? Something like:
Regarded as one of the most influential figures in music history, she is known for her vocal ability, dynamic performances, and culturally important works. She has transformed the music industry by pioneering unconventional rollouts and cohesive albums, while shaping the sound of contemporary music through her artistic innovations and popularization of certain genres.Bgkc4444 (talk) 14:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The key difference, as I mentioned earlier, is that those articles are stating specific facts that help explain who the artist is and what they have done. Saying that she is “one of the most influential figures in music history” is not a specific fact that helps me learn more about who Beyonce is and what kinds of things she has done and is notable for.
To your suggestion, “transformed the music industry” is a violation of WP:Peacock as it is nonspecific promotional language, and “shaping the sound of contemporary music” sounds similarly promotional, even if unfortunately there is somewhat similar language in other articles of Western pop musicians.
To clarify, I was saying that if you feel a specific Rolling Stone acclaim or list placement, as is featured in some other articles that have been shared, is more important than any of the other awards and statistics in the final paragraph of the lead, I have no objection to replacing one of those with one from Rolling Stone. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 15:02, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"They are widely regarded as the most influential band in Western popular music and were integral to the development of 1960s counterculture and the recognition of popular music as an art form... As pioneers in recording, songwriting and artistic presentation, the Beatles revolutionised many aspects of the music industry and were often publicised as leaders of the era's youth and sociocultural movements."The Beatles
"Considered one of the greatest songwriters of all time, Dylan has been a major figure in popular culture over his 60-year career... His lyrics incorporated political, social and philosophical influences, defying pop music conventions and appealing to the burgeoning counterculture."Bob Dylan
"Dubbed the "King of Pop", he is regarded as one of the most significant cultural figures of the 20th century. Over a four-decade career, his world record music achievements and publicized personal life made him a global figure. His innovations in the 1980s creatively elevated the music video medium and broke racial barriers."Michael Jackson
"Regarded as one of the most influential musicians of the 20th century, Bowie was acclaimed by critics and musicians, particularly for his innovative work during the 1970s."David Bowie
" Although their initial career lasted just two and a half years, they became one of the most culturally influential acts in popular music. The band initiated the punk movement in the United Kingdom and inspired many later punk, post-punk and alternative rock musicians, while their clothing and hairstyles were a significant influence on the early punk image."Sex Pistols
All featured articles, so by your own measure there is a clear precedent. If you disagree with wording, let's try reach a consensus-based paragraph. You ignoring this, criticizing others' efforts, and trying to decide for yourself what should and should not be "allowed" in this article is not constructive. Bgkc4444 (talk) 15:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please assume good faith, as I have done for you. We share a goal of trying to improve the article.
I have already explained in my previous replies why these examples, a couple of which I also think are too hyperbolic and promotional, differ from what has previously been added and proposed for this article. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 15:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. You say we should follow the precedent set by featured articles, and you don't "allow" the article to say "one of the most influential figures in music history", but as shown above, those articles all say similar things. Other editors and I are trying to create a paragraph that accurately and fully represents her notability, as I assume you are too. It would be much more constructive for everyone if you would provide an example paragraph in reflection of all editors' comments. Bgkc4444 (talk) 16:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
My problem replacing the current “an influential figure in music” with “one of the most influential figures in music history” is that it is nonspecific puffery. It doesn’t help explain who Beyonce is, what she has done, or what specifically she is known for. I would oppose most similar sweeping, nonspecific language in other articles.
My proposal is to leave the lead in its current state, and if you want to add a specific example from the Rolling Stone lists you’ve been citing in place of one of the other accolades in the final paragraph of the lede I wouldn’t object to that either. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 16:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, because numerous reliable sources describe her as such, as explained in the article, and there is a precedent for such phrasing on Wikipedia (see also the comment below) - it's not up to editors to downplay the phrasing based on our own POVs. Other editors and I are trying to add what she had done and is known for fully in the paragraph, as we feel it is not sufficient in the state you left it in, but we keep getting shut down by you. Please recognise that there is growing consensus amongst the editors in this discussion to add further material to this paragraph. If you want to contribute your opinion to how this expanded paragraph could look like, providing an example would be great for all. Bgkc4444 (talk) 17:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
A third party can adjudicate the proper consensus. I have shared my perspectives, you have shared yours, and it seems we have not agreed upon a compromise. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 17:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to get too into the weeds on how we refer to Beyonce or some of these other artists mentioned, but it's important to point out what WP:SUBJECTIVE says: "[T]he article on Shakespeare should note that he is widely considered one of the greatest authors in the English language by both scholars and the general public. It should not, however, state that Shakespeare is the greatest author in the English language." ~~ Jessintime (talk) 16:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Since you guys have this article protected, I can't edit this sentence, but it needs to be edited. It's under "Career beginnings." "The move reduced the family's income by half, and Beyoncé's parents were forced to sell their house and cars and move into separated apartments."
"#32 Beyoncé, 'Lemonade' (2016)". Rolling Stone 500 Greatest Albums Of All Time. Retrieved December 5, 2024. Beyoncé is one of the most influential musicians of all time
Taylor, Savannah M. "Beyoncé's 'Renaissance' Is the Cultural Reset We Didn't Know We Needed". Ebony. Retrieved December 9, 2024. There's not much about Queen Bey we can say that hasn't already been said. Frequently crowned one of the most influential and talented entertainers of all time, she has reached heights within the music industry that many believed to be unattainable. A career spanning almost three decades, she's unstoppable.
"The Year Of Bey — How Beyoncé Broke Our Chains And Empowered Black Women In 2016". Essence. October 26, 2020. Retrieved December 9, 2024. Beyoncé. Her name alone reverberates through our spines and conjures a spectrum of emotions. Singer, songwriter, actress, wife, mother, feminist, and one of the most influential women in all of history, Beyoncé is having her best year ever. The hardest working woman in show business spent 2016 proving why she is undeniably one of the greatest recording artists to ever hold a microphone, and we all got in formation and reveled in her magnificence.
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 18:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
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